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- Doctor Doom from Marvel
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- Superman & Krypto from DC
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- Captain America from Marvel
I may have touched on this before, but I’m not sure if it was a post or comments. I’ve been pondering the flaws in heroes and people’s reactions to this. Not just the reactions, but the demand for heroes to be imperfect. During this thinking, I looked at a few statements. Tell me which one doesn’t seem to fit:
- I hate perfect heroes. They should have real world flaws.
- Real heroes don’t cry.
- That character is always getting angry, which makes them a lame hero.
- The hero isn’t real if he/she needs help from others.
Uh . . . What? People may disagree, but I’m going to say that #1 doesn’t fit. Why? Well, it’s obvious to my current thought process. That’s what people claim to want, but then many will turn around to despise a character for certain flaws. Luke Callindor gets a lot of heat for crying, complaining, and proving that he’s still maturing. Even in Beginning of a Hero where it’s established that he’s totally green and inexperienced. The series toughens him up, but it isn’t really a straight line. Don’t even get me started on some messages I get when Nyx has to be saved. Not like she doesn’t do her own share of rescuing and ass-kicking. My point here is that it really does seem like many people want flaws in characters, but get annoyed when they’re given what they asked for.
I wondered why and I’m going to stand on an old statement that I’ve heard a few times. A friend once said that we hate fictional characters who embody our own weaknesses or those traits that we fear. For example, a person who cries too much or finds the act a sign of weakness will be soured on a hero that has no problem letting the tears flow. Our personal preferences and beliefs always factor into our reactions toward fiction. Most times without us realizing it. Hence the demand for something that may be met with dislike. Guess you should be careful what you wish for.
Here’s another point that I’ve been mulling over for several months. All of this ‘hated’ archetypes and character traits exist in the real world. We have whiners, selfish jerks, damsels in distress, manipulative jerks, and all the others that we find it so easy to look at with disdain. So if we want our fiction to mirror our reality then we have to accept that there will be characters who possess the flaws that we dislike. Some of them might even be heroes or hold an important role in an adventure. Otherwise, our desire for ‘real’ and ‘flawed’ characters are rather empty and I do include my own requests. Though I’ve tried to stop doing that ever since I came to this realization.
So, I do have a simple, yet difficult question. Do you really want real, flawed heroes of all types or do you have a more specific idea in mind?
Legends of Windemere 
The real heroes, for me, in both fiction and life are the ones who have problems and get on with it anyway… learning to overcome their own limitations. A skilled warrior who fights a dragon is less of a hero for me than the arachnophobe who walks through spiderwebs to rescue the damsel in distress.
As far as tears are concerned… if a hero has no heart, and cannot be moved by emotion or beauty, why would he/she bother being a hero? The best men I know weep.
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Facing fears and problems is definitely a big thing about being a hero. I wonder if the ‘impatience trend’ is why some people don’t want characters to be flawed for very long. Almost like they thing the hero should be ‘cured’ within the first act.
I think a character that can’t be moved by emotion or beauty can still be a hero, but a broken one. They’d be rather cold and focus on something else like black & white righteousness or maybe the attention they get from their deeds.
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I think you have a point, we are being shifted towards an ‘instant’ culture, wanting everything now, regardless of how feasible that really is.
I know there are beautifully crafted characters of the cold variety… though many have that inner place that may not show on the surface, but still shapes their actions.
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Probably another character type that needs to evolve. Funny how people tend to forget that how a character starts is not necessarily how they end.
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Yet we ourselves all have to start somewhere.. and hopefully learn as we go. Maybe that’s the problem… perhaps folks don’t want humanity in fantasy?
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I’ve seen that argument. They don’t want true humanity because they don’t think it would exist in a world of magic. Not really sure about how that logic works.
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Not sure I would want to read it either.. I like to be able to relate to characters in some way. I’ve met real life heroes… they are usually as screwed up as the rest of us.
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Starting to wonder if everyone is screwed up in some way. What’s normal exactly?
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No idea, if you ever find out… do let me know 😉
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It’s frustrating when you get conflicting feedback like the statements you mentioned in your post. The same people who complained about Luke probably complained about Tony Stark’s flaws in Iron Man 3 or Thor’s anger management issues in the first Thor. We’d all like to think we would be coolly capable under pressure like so many superhero or assassin movies and books where the protagonist expertly gets the job done without a flutter. So we project our desire onto a character in a book or a movie.
I prefer a hero with flaws. Flaws allow for growth. You’ve shown that in your series. I still love Batman Begins, because it showed Bruce struggling to become a hero. He messed up and let his feelings get in the way. That’s believable. That’s the kind of hero I love to read about or watch.
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I think movie characters get more leeway for some reason. Probably because people see the actors too and there’s more of a visual aspect. I actually read an article that stated human nature creates a ‘fight/flight’ reflex and there’s no way around that without being dysfunctional. It’s how we as living creatures stay alive, so diving into danger is really a natural oops. Yet we want our heroes to do this all the time while being ‘real’.
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Perhaps they are given more grace. But if I spend time in a book, I want to read about someone who grows over time.
I agree about the fight/flight aspect. Sometimes we need to see that a hero might run, but then later regret that decision.
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You remind me of a Pearseus reviewer who gave me 3* because “it took too long for the bad guys to get punished.” 🙂
Personally, I love flawed heroes – just as much as I appreciate an antihero with redeeming qualities (even better if I can identify with them). As you can tell from the above review, though, one man’s medicine is another man’s poison.
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I got one of those reviews around Book 4. People wanted the Lich dead and gone solely because he’d been around for ‘so long’.
Excellent way of looking at it.
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Actually, I find the idea of your reviewer holding down the Lich with one hand and stabbing him repeatedly while yelling, “Die! Die! Die!” quite appealing 😀
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If only that would actually work. Might tickle the rotting bastard. Though, I will admit that the Lich has a rather interesting development arc.
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Wouldn’t it be fun to see the expression on the reviewer’s face when that *didn’t* work, though? 🙂
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Definitely. Then the Hellfire Elf shows him how to really stab a person. 😀
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Isn’t the word you’re looking for, “skewer”? 😀
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Depends on the delivery. 🙂
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I’m struggling with a character in my WIP. I intended to make her a strong female. With her reactions to the conflicts she’s faced, she’s coming off weak. She cries. She has anxieties that are manifested in different ways. She has nightmares. She’s on meds. She’s in therapy. She’s frequently indecisive. She jumps to conclusions. She’s got some real and some unfounded fears.
But, she’s been raising teenagers on her own. She’s a professional and works in a busy E.R. She’s had to grab a shovel and dig a hole to bury a loved one.
It’s a psycho thriller, and I’m expecting her to toughen up as time goes by…but then, will people say she’s not being true to her character? She’s a main character, sort of a co-hero, but not independently the hero.
I think a flawed character is more interesting, but people have these ingrained notions on what they accept as flaws and what they won’t accept. They say they want to see strong women and then complain that they are boring and unrealistic.
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People will draw whatever conclusion they do. Some people can see all of that as weak while others can see all of her flaws as obstacles for her to overcome. Something to be said for heroes that start weak and grow strong. Funny how every reader has their own list of what’s a good flaw and what isn’t.
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It is. What I may see as a strength, that a woman is confident enough to freely expresses her emotions, another may interpret entirely different and see as a sign of weakness. Just goes to shoe how much readers and writers are influenced by their personal life experiences.
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Female characters do tend to get the worst of it too. Crying is the big thing. A strong female character cries and people scream that she’s been ruined. She never cries and people scream that she’s been turned into a ‘man with boobs’. Just can’t win.
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That would be show, ahem
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I like variety – we are a diverse bunch and there are many types of hero 😀
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Exactly. Not sure why some people aren’t fans of that.
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Reblogged this on Princess of the Light: Books, Writing and Inspiring Others.
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Thanks for the reblog.
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You’re welcome. 🙂
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To me, a flawless hero is boring! A well-crafted hero has flaws that fit with the rest of the character. You’ll never please everyone – better to let the character develop with the story than worry about pleasing multifarious readers with differing views.
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Very well said.
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I have to admit I have probably complained about a flawed character for being annoying or not meeting my “flawed expectations”. I do think that when something you do not like about yourself, or in people, shows up in a character, there would be a tendency to cringe internally every time it came up in a scene. In the end though, I agree with Annabelle- you can’t please everyone. As long as the character does grow, they will continue to move the story with them.
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I’ve probably done it too. The sister in Rick Riordan’s second series comes to mind. It took a lot to keep giving her extra chances. She did kind of grow by the end. Not sure if it was as a character or I accepted her. That’s the tough part with a series. The growth doesn’t always happen in the first novel.
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I’m of the opinion that heroes are made not born. They should develop over the life of the story and might exhibit some traits that the reader doesn’t like. Short of ending up in a scene from Misery, I think the author should be the one to call the shots.
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“Heroes are made, not born.” As a former Subway employee, I can attest to this. 😛
It really is all about the development. It’s rare that a hero starts at the top of their game. Unless the story involves them falling from grace.
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Hero creator at Subway. You are right about development.
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The official term was/is ‘Sandwich Artist’. I’m not joking about that. It’s what I put on my resume and it netted me an interview or two out of pure curiosity.
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Ha ha ha. I like that moniker. I used to mow lawns while in school and called my self “Landscape Stylist.”
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That’s a great one. 🙂
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For me the hero or heroine has to be flawed so I can imagine being them. However I also really need them to be likeable. That’s pretty much it for me. 🙂
Cheers
MTM
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I’m actually okay with an unlikeable hero if they grow out of it or have a reason. For me, it’s hard to believe every hero would be friendly and sociable.
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I tend not to think in terms of “flaws” because I tend not to think that there is just one right way to handle any situation and all of the other ways are wrong. What is important is that characters act consistently.
If Matt Sledgehammer, tough private eye, has a quick temper and reacts with his fists, that’s going to be a more effective strategy in some situations than in others. Against the Velvet Skull on the deck of a burning tramp steamer at midnight, violence is probably the perfect tool to use. Meeting the Velvet Skull in her secret identity at gallery opening, Matt’s going to end up in jail if he comes out swinging.
On the other hand Matt’s cool headed and fast talking sidekick Teddy Chan may be aces at getting information from the hotel desk clerk, but be a serious disadvantage against berserk cultists with machetes.
Characters will use different approaches to problems. Teddy might trick information out of a corrupt cop by pretending to be on the take himself, while Matt might just hang the crooked cop out the window until he sings. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.
To my way of think it’s not matter of strengths and weaknesses because the same characteristic can be either, depending on the situation.
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I think I use the term ‘flaws’ mostly because I spent years playing Vampire: The Masquerade with their merit/flaw system. I really do want to see a Matt Sledgehammer and Teddy Chan story now.
You bring up a good point that heroic groups have an advantage over a solitary. The ‘weaknesses’ of a hero can be offset if they have others around them to help. Solitaries have a lot of trouble. For example, Wolverine and Punisher have similar methods/styles. Wolverine gets in less trouble because he has people like Cyclops and Storm to keep him in check. Punisher is usually trying to avoid the cops as well as the criminals.
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Perhaps what readers want is to identify with the character, so not every flaw is equal. Perhaps “flaws” is a code word for “amusing quirks.” A good example of a flawed hero might be Peter Parker of Spider-Man. He had such bad luck — big things and little things were always going wrong for him. Yet he handled it with wise cracks and the character has great popularity.
As you point out, showing emotion can make people uncomfortable. Not just tears, but anger. We all recognize that feeling of being out of control and it isn’t what we want to identify with. To give an extreme example, nobody would want to identify with a character that harmed a child, even though every parent knows there are those scary moments when you can barely restrain yourself.
Just remember, you can’t please every reader. The fact that they communicate with you is great, but you can’t let a vocal minority change how you tell your story.
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I guess it does boil down to how a reader identifies and relates to a character. I know a few people who hate Spider-Man for the wise-cracks and love Batman for the gloominess. One is considered a ‘flaw’ and the other is considered a ‘quirk’.
That dislike of negative emotions and actions do make it harder to create villains that are more than ‘bad person does bad things’. I think they get it worse than heroes.
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I personally like it when protagonists or “heroes” make me somewhat uncomfortable (caveat is I don’t want to read about them committing something like sexual violence or violence on a kid, that’s a deal breaker for me). But as for being unlikable, I don’t mind, because it gives them somewhere to go. I mean yeah, Luke Skywalker is whiny in A New Hope, but he’s supposed to be like eighteen, and that’s true to what a small-town teen kid is…plus, it makes his progression into seasoned warrior in Return of the Jedi all the better. Judas Coyne isn’t that likable in Heart Shaped Box, but he slowly becomes someone that the reader can understand and get behind, even if you don’t agree with all his choices. I personally like writing unlikable characters because that’s more room to play, but I totally agree that it’s frustrating when that’s what readers seem to get fixated by. Personally, as long as there is a good foundation for the character and they actually follow a progression/story arc, I’ll usually give it a chance.
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Yeah that type of violence tends to be a sign of a hero going evil. Great examples for characters who start with unlikable traits and grow out of it. As you said, it gives the author more room to play and you can create character developing subplots. It’s not just ‘perfect’ hero + main goal = story. There are personal twists and turns that make the character memorable.
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