Good Vs Evil (Homer Simpson)
I might run the risk of getting into trouble here, but it’s something that I want to write about. Morals and ethics within a fantasy setting are an interesting pitfall. The nuances of these categories differ among groups and individuals. So, the actions of one character might be good for one and sinful for another. Makes me wonder how people can openly grade fictional characters on their morality.
I bring this up because the appearance of Sari in Legends of Windemere has thrown off a few people. Not going to go into details, but my own morality has been brought into question here. Sari is a sexually open individual and is going to get a little worse because she loves kissing . . . even women. This is how she delivers some of her spells and she’s overall flirty. One scene in the book takes place where she relieves pressure by sleeping with a character’s fiancee. That part is far in the background with noises, but nothing graphic. Yet, it seems this offends some people and I’m confused on that. It’s been established that Sari has no qualms about sex or nudity. Nobody seemed to have an issue with the graphic violence that ensued a few times.
Another issue that has been picked at for lack of morality is the culture of Bor’daruk where Kira Grasdon is from. This is a culture that was nearly destroyed by adultery and divorce. To combat this, they made laws that allow a person to test their relationship before marriage with multiple partners. The main partner must give permission and meet the secondary. This isn’t only sexual, which is where I think people get tripped up. The thing is that once married in Bor’daruk, you stay married until death. Divorce results in exile and only your children can return to the culture. Anyway, this is the relationship that Luke Callindor is in and people have pointed out how much they dislike the open relationships on a moral grounds.
My thing is that this makes sense for the culture and is morally right to them. So, how does one deal with a person trying to input their own moral code into what you’re trying to create? Do you keep going and let people deal with it? That seems like the best bet, but it makes me worried about a few future events in the series.
Legends of Windemere 
People always impart their views onto what they see. *Everything* is in the eye of the beholder, to a greater or lesser degree. How we view ourselves, each other, history, the future, fiction, fantasy… we can’t divorce how we experience the world from… how we experience the world.
What is immoral to one, isn’t worth batting an eye at to another. We view violence as common place and sex as something to be censored. What does *that* say about our culture?
When Firefly was on the air, one episode contained a torture scene and a barely shown but obviously implied same sex scene. People complained about the latter and ignored the former.
So yeah, our culture puts a greater moral negative on sexual issues than it does on violence, torture, murder… and people who live in such a society will always view things they see through this veil of moral weight.
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I’ve gotten into that ‘sex & violence in society’ debate a lot. It’s rather disturbing to see death be glorified while procreation be avoided as a topic.
Not sure what it says about me, but I don’t remember the implied same sex scene. Wait. It had something to do with Inara and I’m still confused on why people get upset about such a thing. Also that enough people watched Firefly back then to make a stink.
I’m waiting to see what happens when a few torture scenes appear in my books. Nothing extremely graphic to my mind, but if that gets ignored while an implied bisexuality of a character gets reamed then I’m at a loss on what to do about it. Probably nothing.
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I agree. Do nothing. Or rather, do what you want to do. Don’t let a reader’s disapproval change *your* story. That’s IMO the most important thing for an author to remember, the story is yours. You’re *sharing* it with the reader, but it isn’t their story, they don’t dictate it.
Write a bisexual character, write a torture scene, write the story in your head. Drag society, kicking and screaming, into the future.
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Kind of odd how society has to be dragged into this. Especially if you look at some of the ways humans have ‘morally’ acted in history.
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Yup. But alas, seems to be human nature. I, for one, enjoy being at the front of *this* parade. 😀
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It has its perks. Mostly you don’t get lost in the pack.
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Yup. You make for a more visible target, but I don’t really care about that 😉
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You walk a tightrope between not wanting to judge a character outside a cultural context and on the other hand is the hazard of cultural relativism, and I think you know what I mean by that. I’m a writer but not of fan of fantasy so I have not read or seen movies such as the one(s) you refer to. Bearing that in mind, I hope this comment is at least coherent.
But in my stories I simply refuse to judge my characters’ morality. I just set themselves in motion and let them define themselves in an existential way.
Fine post.
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I agree. As an author, I feel I shouldn’t put the same morality on all of my characters. There are differences among the cultures of the real world, so it makes sense it would happen in a fantasy world too. As you said, it really is the character that defines their own moral code.
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Yeah this has been a problem with writing in general, not even just fantasy. I see this brought up in movies too. I guess it could be you might not have had such issues before so for them to show up later, it might be a shock to some readers. But now that it has happened, you should be okay with future books.
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I agree. I remember these debates when I was in high school. Probably was around before that and I wasn’t paying attention. I’d be lying if I didn’t think something like this would happen though. The new character is sexual at times while the previous two are more low key.
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Excellent point! I find it especially interesting when people complain about it in Fantasy settings, or even stories set in other cultures in our own world. You have to accept that characters within a story will act according to (or be judged against) their own culture’s morals, not the reader’s.
I have a character who lives in a place where it’s difficult for women to get pregnant, so premarital sex is… well, if not openly encouraged, it’s at least accepted, because it means more chances to bring kids into the world. For her to fall in love with someone and sleep with him isn’t going to make her feel guilty. I can see readers questioning it, but that’s their problem.
I have another culture where sexual relationships are incredibly fluid, and never expected to last long. That should be fun when I delve more into their stories. 😉
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Sounds similar to what I got ‘in trouble’ for. One culture has a marriage system where you’re partners for 1 year and then choose to stay together or not. This is similar to a real world system that I was told about in college. It was more dating than marriage from how it was described, so I upped it.
The one I described in the post is the big one though. I’m surprised how big a splash it made since the culture’s origin and rules are explained.
Very curious about how your fluid relationship culture works. I can see people’s head exploding over that.
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Yeah, we’ll see. I don’t see it being a central plot point, but it’s a fact of life. Then again, they’re not entirely human, so maybe they get a pass? *hysterical laughter*
Actually, my (human) hero makes no secret of the fact that his first sexual experience was with someone not exactly human. Close enough for most stories, you understand, but I can actually see people getting weirded out by that. I wonder where we’re supposed to draw the line in Fantasy? At human genitals, perhaps? Could one sleep with a Minotaur, but not a harpy? Sleep with a mer in human form (if they shift, as mine do), but not in mer form? There’s something to explore…
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I don’t think people as weirded out about interspecies sex in fantasy and sci-fi as they used to. Thank you, Captain Kirk, for boldly going where no man had gone before. As long as the points match up, I don’t think it’s a problem. Though, I now wonder if I’d be getting less heat if there were elves involved in the culture. People seem to have no problem with elves sleeping around.
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Despite what some religions would like to believe, not everyone’s moral/ethic/honor codes are exactly the same. An example of code that comes to mind would be one that I’ve recently found myself doing research on, Omertà, which isn’t one everyone would agree with, but there are plenty of people who would (and not just those involved in organized crime): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omerta
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Wow. That definitely sounds like a crime family code from the opening paragraph. People seem to forget that these types of codes exist and are right within the context of their culture. Blanking on the term that means the inability to think outside of your culture and beliefs.
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Keep going. There will always be different views on morality. You are an honest author. Stay the course.
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Thanks. I knew Sari would cause a stir.
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I think you are given liberty to do these things with villains… when it comes to heroes though I think readers want them to share similar values… I think this is especially true of stories that follows the classic good vs. evil scheme…
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I getting that. Kind of strange in a world where anti-heroes like Wolverine are praised. Though, I think such moral upsets are directed toward sex instead of violence. Your hero butchers a room full of minions and he’s still a hero. Dates two girls at once and he’s a monster. 🙂
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I think it becomes a trust thing… the hero that can’t be trusted in the bedroom shows he cannot be trusted outside of the bedroom… also psychologically more people have been betrayed sexually, and fewer people have experienced real violence (more than a slap upside the head.) so it may be personal experience of the reader that causes the reaction… also I think a lot of people struggle with sexuality when it is not approached as a joke… I direct you to two and a half men and family guy who use humor as the vehicle for deviant sexual behaviour of beloved characters… as for the excessive violence being less offensive in literature… In the words of Arnie (True Lies) when asked under sodium pentothal if he had ever killed anyone “Yes, but they were all bad.”
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One of my favorite Arnie lines.
I agree that the trust thing is a big deal. From what I’ve seen, it gets to a point where a reader will overlook if such actions are part of the fictional culture. That’s where the clashing seems to come from.
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Oh morality. That’s one line I’m likely to cross instead of walk, but then again I’m not exactly dealing with a human mentality. I’ve also noticed in the United States people make a big deal about sex, but in Europe, it’s the violence that is in such position.
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I’ve noticed that too. I think you have a good point that non-human characters get a pass. For example, elves can be extremely slutty and still be admired. Yet, a human character gets booed.
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It has to be the ears. Something about the ears.
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Makes sense to me.
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The problem with trying something “new” in literature is that it takes a lot of time to set it all up in an internally consistent fashion so the reader can follow it. Having a culture / morality that is similar to Muslim Polygamy of Gypsy Promiscuity is easier to write than something more uncommon or unusual. People already have ideas about these things, and you can play off what is already expected or assumed.
The Kira / Luke / Bor’Daruk relationship setup is uncommon / unusual. As such it need a lot of internally consistent exposition to make it work. Love triangles, mistresses, gypsy flings, awkward ex’s, womanizers, and the like are much easier to write, because everyone has seen them before. They are also easier for the audience to understand and identify with.
Elves don’t exist, so elven promiscuity does not contradict real world experience. Same with protagonist / werewolf / vampire love triangles.
I’d give a concrete example from the book but I don’t want to speculate or spoil.
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Good points. Though, I think a reader’s personal exposure and preferences are factors as well. For example, polygamy exists and people know about it. I personally look at the Bor’Daruk culture in a similar light, but without the negative lens. Hence the author/reader difference in perception. It’s a challenge too. An author can never predict what will happen with reader perception too, so some things are a total crap shoot. For example, I had no idea how many people would love Fritz or that the Hellfire Elf would get a few fans.
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Yeah, I forgot to add that. In the absence of a clear explanation of the alternate morality, the reader will fall back on real world experience and commonly accepted literary mores to fill in the blanks.
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That’s a double-edged sword too. It can cause backlash for the author, but it can also create discussions between people who read the book.
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