Now, I’d like to say that ‘win’ does not always equal ‘survive’. Heroes can be victorious and die. This part is really a clarification of my own stance and I’m also not entirely sure where to go with this because the above quote sums it up perfectly.
It wasn’t only recently that I heard someone say that they have shows, movies, and books where they good guys win. They claimed that it’s unrealistic that good triumphs over evil, which is rather telling about the speaker. I mean, you have a person who accepts that bad guys will usually win. They want fiction to reveal this and the series that they’re into reflect this thought. I’m talking about a person who cheers when a good person dies in Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead. In fact, I watched a series called Defiance and the last season seemed to go full-on GoT. Many people said it was how a show should be made because it was dark and gritty like life. I wasn’t one of this people.
Call me naive, innocent, blind, or whatever insult you have in mind. The truth is that I don’t like having bad guys win unless there’s another story coming where they fail. So far, I’ve only had evil triumph in Catalysts and Raven’s Hold, which are my attempts at horror. Note how often I go back to those. The thing is that I see bad guys winning as a twist ending that has lost it’s use. It makes the rest of the story rather moot since you’re typically following the hero. All the work and trials the protagonist went through were for nothing. In a way, I feel like I was made to waste my time because the world I was invested in has either remained the same or plunged into darkness. I’ll go back if it looks like a new hero has arisen, but there will be some distance.
Here’s the thing with me and the whole ‘good vs evil’ shtick. I tend to think we do live in a rough world where those of darker natures win over those who are good. We’re constantly bombared by sensational headlines and reasons to be afraid of the world. Even at smaller scales, I’ve heard of people getting success by backstabbing and kissing ass while a hard-working employee is locked in their position. Heck, I was even told once that to rise up the ranks, I couldn’t be nice. This left a sour taste in my mouth because negativity begets negativity. I know it’s weird coming from a guy who gets angry or depressed a lot, but that’s another reason I do what I do. My stories give me hope and allow me a bit of positive energy.
That’s the big reason I have my heroes win. I put them through hell and break them at several points, but I like to see them find new reserves of strength. A hero who quits after a setback isn’t one worth following, especially since their story is probably over. Besides, why should I add to the negativity and cynicism that seems to be running rampant today? I hate feeling this way, so I wouldn’t want to make someone else come away from my stories thinking that good will always lose.
Do I think it’s wrong to have evil win? No because it’s a personal choice. It’s simply not the one I make and there are days I feel like I have to defend my decision to stand on the side of good. Not only that, but that’s where the stories and Windemere as a whole tends to go. Bedlam too in a way because that’s about surviving and retaining your humanity in a harsh world.
Anyway, I leave you with this:
Legends of Windemere 
LOL “good is dumb”.
I agree. I dislike books/movies/TV where the bad guys win. Unless the story has been set up where the bad guy is the protagonist and you’re cheering for them the whole time — in that case, I’m cool if they win. But in most cases, I’m on Team Good. I like watching the hero struggle and scrape and fight and fail and pick themselves back up and try again … but eventually they do have to come out on top. Otherwise, what was the point? It’s just such a depressing message — try as hard as you can, and you’ll still fail. I don’t need that kind of negativity in my life.
That being said, I do really enjoy Game of Thrones. But not because I like watching my favorite characters die — because I have faith (probably a foolish faith) that good will prevail and at least *some* of the good guys will make it out alive and change the world for the better. Will that actually happen? God, I hope so, because the world and politics are fascinating. And if evil prevails? Honestly, I’ll be really disappointed. And I probably won’t be able to bring myself to reread the series or rewatch the show again.
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Great point on the ‘try and still fail’ message. It kind of makes a person want to be the villain too. I mean, if good always fails then why be on that side in the first place?
I have to admit that I don’t watch Game of Thrones. Not through lack of trying, but one thing that turned me off is seeing friends cheer for the ‘good guys’ dying violently. I wonder if the finale of Game of Thrones has the fate of future fantasy stories in its hands. If evil wins then people will expect more of that from the genre, but if good wins then that’s what people will expect.
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Honestly, I think it’s going to be a bittersweet ending – like, a Pyrrhic victory. They’ll technically win, but the cost will be too high — and evil won’t be eradicated, just pushed back and waiting for its next chance to strike. That seems to be in keeping with the dark, grittiness of the story thus far. I would prefer a resounding success from the good guys, but then, that’s not the Game of Thrones style.
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Think you’re right even with my limited knowledge. Ending on ‘unicorns, rainbows, & happily ever after’ would seem really out of place.
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You shouldn’t have to defend your choices at all. For everything we love, there is a hater. For everything we dislike, someone loves it. I struggled with a similar thing in The Cock of the South. In the end, I made a commercial decision. The story involves non-human peoples. There is a weight over the story that we don’t have them around today. I left a hint of a possibility as to what might happen, but ended on a moderately high note.
I like some of those gritty stories like Walking Dead. I don’t think I’d like a steady diet of it though.
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They’re an occasional indulgence, I guess. Spend too much time on the darker side and you can become numb to it. Kind of like how jump scares in horror and shock events in stories lose their effect if done too often. What you mention about The Cock of the South reminds me about how the TV show ‘Dinosaurs’ ended. Kind of sad and inevitable.
Not sure why I felt the need to defend myself. I think having so many friends that are into the death and darkness of various series makes me feel like I’m alone on wanting the good guys to win. Then again, everyone flipped out with that whole Glenn thing.
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I’ve always known that a powerful emotional experience is uber important. Sometimes I’ve been able to deliver, sometimes it’s just close. The whole Glenn thing delivered, because we loved him. Not all emotions are happy. Horror suffers because we’ve all seen it before. You get to like what you enjoy. You get to write what you like. If you have to write what you don’t enjoy it better come with pay every two weeks and benefits.
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Emotional responses are really hard to pull off. A scene that I may find gut-wrenching to write or read again might have no effect on a reader. Challenge of dealing with individual beings. At least until I finish designing the mind-controlling taco distribution machine. 😀 Seriously though, it can be frustrating to aim for a powerful emotion and discover you missed the mark. Many times it isn’t anything the author did, but simply how the reader reacts.
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I’ve been there. I elect to keep trying. It’s also possible that some will have the emotional experience, and others won’t. It’s the nature of dealing with individuals.
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Very well said. 🙂
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I’m all for realism, but fantasy is the genre where the hero will invariably win through in some respect, even if it’s through making an ultimate sacrifice. I agree that the death-rate on Game of Thrones for the protagonist can be wearisome (unless you’re Tirian or Verys and even they go through the ringer quite regularly), with Littlefinger taking on the mantle of the antagonist who will always land on his feet. What I do like about it though, is that it does show characters like the Hound sometimes acting with suspiciously protagonist-style honour and/or being set in context against their past or upbringing, which is at least lightening the shades of black a little bit…
WONDERFUL to see that excerpt from Space Balls! 😉
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I get the feeling that most of the Game of Thrones characters are in the middle. There’s a lot of gray in them instead of simply black and white. There is a big call for more ‘realism’ in fantasy these days. The genre is strange in that way because it tends to mold around whatever series is sitting in the throne.
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Bravo, Charles, for sticking to what you believe. I feel sorry for anyone who has such a bleak outlook on life that a good guy winning is viewed as unrealistic. I’m no Pollyanna. Having lived with depression, I misplaced my rose-colored glasses. But I don’t need stories that supposedly showcase the “reality” of evil triumphing. As if I haven’t faced the difficulties of life enough? As if a story of unrelenting negativity is really cathartic or a boost to my day?
So keep doing what you’re doing. You show heroes in adversity who band together in the struggle. Sometimes they win. Sometimes they lose. But at least they try.
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Thanks. I’m really wondering why the bleak outlook is becoming so common. I see it happening more and more. Maybe fiction is more the victim than part of the source. A lot of the ‘doom/gloom’ stuff I say is triggered by the big no-no topics. Usually politics.
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I’m not sure. But I prefer reading a story that gives me the courage to go on living, rather than one that tells me “life sucks.”
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Me too. I can plunge myself into a depression without the literary assist. 😉
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I always like good to win. I get a little upset by those dark, gritty things that seem to paint the world as one dirty place to be. I didn’t like Breaking Bad for a very simple reason. There is no reason to portray a meth cooker as anything but a slime ball. Give me good over evil every time. I also agree with Craig. You shouldn’t have to defend your position.
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I never got into Breaking Bad, but the description of him was that he did descend into slime ball. I wonder if that kind of story follows the ‘villain’ instead of the ‘hero’. No idea how the series ended though, so I don’t know if good or evil triumphed.
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I think they all walked away.
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I agree I like to have good win over evil in the end. We all need hope and I think that is the purpose of a great story to give the readers hope.
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A hopeful story can be a valuable thing. More so than people realize. 🙂
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Technically, good does win out in the real world, at least most of the time and depending on what side you’re on. It might take years, but good does win out. Look at WWII, I think nearly everyone would agree good won in that fight.
In stories, I prefer good winning, or a satisfying tie at least.
Very eye opening post.
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True. Though I don’t think we’re allowed to see it that often. We tend to be bombarded by the tragedy and most news sources wander off before it’s either repaired or settled. For example, we always hearing about a shooting and learn about the killer. By the time the trial happens, the event has been relegated to Page 12 of a paper or after the first commercial brake of a news show.
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That’s true, the news media is obsessed with reporting bad news, I assume because they get higher ratings. Unfortunately that means humans seem to prefer bad news to good news, but I keep hoping that that will change one day. Maybe it’s hard wired into our brains to search out bad news, it’s just like how most people slow down to gawk at an accident.
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You’re probably right about the ratings, which is rather depressing. It’s definitely the accident gawking effect. Was thinking of that before I even finished reading the comment. I hope it will change too. Preferably not because something so bad happened that they can’t top it and can only report good stuff.
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Yes, if all we watched or read was the news, we would have a very skewed version of what’s happening in the world, as the focus tends to be on bad, rather than good, news. However, in our stories, our popular culture, our myths and legends, good triumphs. Hope prevails. Love conquers all. And I think that says more about the human spirit, that these are the themes that stay with us.
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It’s an interesting comparison. Our real world is portrayed as dark and rough while our imaginary worlds tend to be more noble or good-sided. It’s kind of like the things aimed at adults are pessimistic and those aimed at kids (even those at heart) are optimistic.
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I read somewhere that it’s an evolutionary thing to be on the lookout for bad news. That if you heard the town or tribe nearest yours had been attacked, you knew it was time to move on. A survival thing. Which may explain why today’s news seems to thrive on presenting bad things, rather than good, as a sort of warning. While there are realities to be faced as adults, it’s a shame to lose the sense of magic we held as children – perhaps this is where stories can help 🙂
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We’re a really tense race at times. I can see how the tribe thing works for a nomadic people, but we can’t pick up and leave any more. Not with ease because a new home is expensive. So it even sounds like this evolutionary quirk is having a negative effect on modern humans.
Totally agree with the shame of losing magic sentiment. I see so many people trying to rid their kids of imagination and creativity. There’s this big desire to be logical, rational, and serious as soon as possible because that’s the road to success. Makes for some rather stressed out kids.
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Oh yes, absolutely. I have wonderful memories of being taken to the woods to look for fairies by my grandmother, of my grandfather telling fantastical stories of his time in the navy. I encourage my daughter all the time when she goes off on a creative bent – I would hate to stifle her in that way.
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Didn’t have a forest to play in. Just grabbed a toy sword and ran around the backyard until I got tired of fighting whatever enemies were around. My son is more into tending to his imaginary animals or pretending he’s a puppy. A few times, he’s been a baby panda and I have to explain that they don’t fly.
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I love that 🙂 That sort of imaginary play allows kids to explore things that interest them. My daughter is often a dancer or singer, although on frosty days on the way to school we are dragons, puffing smoke into the cold air.
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He used to do the singing and dancing, but I think he became shy about it a few years back. Still catch him singing when he thinks we aren’t looking.
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That’s very cute 🙂
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I hear you! My own short work could be considered a “sweet” fantasy that shuns gritty darkness, and boy, do I have a time making sales. Editors says it’s good, but too juvenile. When did hope become a synonym for childish?
Which is why, as the unsold stories pile up, I find myself more and more considering self-publication.
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Juvenile is a familiar phrase I’ve heard aimed at me. Wish I had an answer for the question. Self-publishing definitely has the benefit that you don’t have someone calling your work childish. At least nobody other than readers. 🙂
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