Frodo and Sam from Lord of the Rings
I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance about this week’s subject of friendship and family in fiction. It really wasn’t a conversation. I mentioned a few things and got a surprising response:
Sam & Dean Winchester = Incest
Sam & Frodo = Gay Lovers
Batman & Robin = Gay Lovers
Xena & Gabrielle = Lesbians
You get the idea from those. It seems a lot of people go for the mocking or serious belief that close friends in fiction are romantically involved. Even siblings get the accusation for some reason. I don’t know if it’s simply fun to mock or people are really uncomfortable seeing other people be close/emotional with each other while not having sex in the equation. I’m guessing this is a vocal minority too with a touch of homophobia in the mix. I think the homophobia is either genuine or the person likes using it as a shield for their teasing. Get angry about the people say Sam and Frodo were fucking then you ‘hate gay people’. Doesn’t matter if you’re sick of hearing it or annoyed that it’s the only LOTR conversation you seem to have. You have to sit there and take the abuse from those that see every fictional relationship as fucking.
It seems to be two types of this. One is when the friends are of the same gender and have emotional conversations with each other. If the friends are only joking around and on the adventure together then people over look it. That crossing into what reality calls best friends is where people go batty. I think it stems from characters being emotional and having physical contact. Maybe seeing the emotions of another person, even fictional, makes a person feel awkward. They’re seeing something that they shouldn’t be seeing, so they mock and tease the friendship. A character who cries in front of a friend and has physical contact for comfort must be ‘weak’. To these people, the relationship itself ‘must’ have some romance in it because ‘only’ lovers are that open with each other. Then again, I might be over-analyzing people that simply love to piss off fans of characters.
The other type is when the friendship is between male and female. I have heard a few people want Luke Callindor and Nyx to go further than friendship. True is that I can’t see them beyond that. I remember people going on about wanting Harry with Hermione and Aang with Toph. People will always have their favorite characters/couples even if the author isn’t behind the pairing. Nothing you can do about it without writing fan fiction to cure your ails. This does come off a lot like male and female characters need distance in their friendships. Going to the point of best friends that comfort each other, laugh with each other, and cry with each other causes some confusion. It’s almost like readers consider this type of friendship a precursor to romance or a ploy by the author. Some even get annoyed when the series ends and those two characters never went in the romantic direction.
The point here is that you can have characters become close friends, but you’ll always have that group of readers that see it as something more. It probably says more about them than you and your characters. Everyone has their own definition of friendship and some believe it is always a precursor to sex.
Feel free to voice an opinion or mention your favorite best friends of fiction.
Legends of Windemere 
Someone actually thought Frodo and Sam were intimate? Really? Sounds like… well, I’ll behave. I was just going to ask if anyone really cared, obviously some people do. It is a fictional character for crying out loud, who seriously gives a flying bagel?
This is one of the reasons why we can’t have nice things. Why Bert and Ernie are no longer “friends” because some jack wagon commented that they had to be gay because they lived together. Whether they are or not is irrelevant because they are fricking puppets.
Aye chihuahua I better stop before I come out swinging.
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You haven’t really wandered the Internet that much if you didn’t know about the Frodo/Sam thing. A lot of people have analyzed the movie to prove they’re gay lovers. The people who care are the diehard fans that feel it treads on their dreams, the homophobes, and those who love getting under people’s skins. It’s the modern day Batman/Robin actually.
I didn’t know about the Bert and Ernie thing. Did they really make them gay or split them up? My son isn’t into Sesame Street.
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Never heard that about Frodo/Sam. It is ridiculous and is the creation of people with way too much time on their hands. People also think that about Batman and Robin too? Why? Am I the only one that can read something and understand it at face value?
Like I said, this is why we can’t have nice things. A handful of jack wagons have to ruin everything with gossip and rumors.
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You’re in the majority. This is an effect of the Internet and vocal minority that love to start this. It is funny in a way, but can be obnoxious when it prevents serious discussions about the stories involved.
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I will never understand some people.
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YES!! There’s a LARGE faction of the LOTR fandom that “ship” Frodo and Sam RELI-GIOUS-LY and the fanfic? Like WHOA!!
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Have to wonder about some people.
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Oh, it’s that way in all the major fandoms I’m afraid. Wincest is one of them, even some fan art on the subject (SO NSFW). There’s even Aragorn/Legolas shippers.
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Legolas/Gimli too.
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Oh yeah, that one I find completely hilarious though XDD
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I’m shocked you’ve never heard about the Sam and Frodo love! As much as I love the Lord of the Rings, the Sam and Frodo thing that came out of it is probably one of my favorite LOTR internet memes. 🙂
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Thankfully I have my head in the sand on this one.
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You know I have to comment on the idea that “Sam & Dean Winchester = Incest” 🙂 I suppose it’s possible that someone might think that since neither of them can seem to maintain a “normal” life. Of course, if it weren’t for the world going to hell (literally), perhaps they would be able to lead separate lives. The thing is, in all these examples, the characters are under some kind of duress and need each other to survive. Sam or Dean would be dead without the other (and so would the story). I agree that some of this discomfort with close friendships (especially same sex friendships) border on homophobia or just plain jealousy (how many people enjoy such close friendships in their own lives?). But I also think that people who suggest, for example, that Sam and Frodo are gay, are not looking at their lives in context. The context–whether it’s the struggle to close the gates of Hell or to steal and destroy a ring–is what drives the relationship. Without those struggles, these characters might have little to do with each other (and, again, there would be no story).
The flip side–wanting the close friendship to blossom into something more–is a natural inclination of readers wanting to write the story. But, yes, again, there is that discomfort with close friendships: how can a man and woman be so close and yet not lust after each other. I’ve even seen it in real life, when some people started assuming a friend of mine was having an affair just because he had a close friend who was not his wife. The gossip actually caused him to distance himself from this friend. I’m digressing. It’s just that I personally like to read about friendships that are close and that don’t always lead to sex.
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Context is definitely key. Still, people seem to love doing this. Batman & Robin are the kings of the ‘they have to be gay’ realm. I’ve been hearing this since I was in high school. The truth is that ‘so what if they are?’ I think a lot of people toss this out as an insult or to stir the hardcore fans’ pots. After all, you can’t really argue with this without coming off as homophobic, so people love to do this to mess with people. There is a tradition of fan-fiction that follows these kinds of relationships, but that’s something else entirely.
I always enjoy the brother/sister friendship because it’s rarely done. I think many authors plan to work it into a romance or cave to fan pressure to do it. It took a long time to think up those two examples above. Maybe these thoughts say more about us than the author and characters.
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There’s something notable about Xena and Gabrielle. Lucy Lawless has been quoted in saying that their friendship was more than a friendship. None of the other pairs ever had that stated by their creators or those that played them in other media. I think it’s more of a “take it as you want” kind of situation, but I would believe them over any of the others.
I think the “best friends = having sex” thing is completely annoying, but I can’t stop myself from falling onto that wagon. You just can’t help it sometimes.
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I remember that being said, but I always thought she was playing with the rumors. They loved to tease the idea. I could say two of my characters (Luke & Nyx) are more than friends in the way that they become pseudo-siblings. Still, I agree that I could believe that Xena and Gabrielle were up to something between episodes. Kudos to the creators for that mystery.
I try to avoid that bandwagon, which seems to easier for guys. We mock the friend zone in real life while going ‘meh’ when it’s done in fiction.
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Everyone is opinionated… but I really find it absurd when some one tries to carve romantic relationships between the characters, having no inclination towards each other that way. Well, that is my opinion. 😀
We often forget that there are many relationships, other than the one between the lovers. There are friends, best friends, siblings… a book is not always meant to be a romantic affair after all. 🙂
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I fully agree. There can be romance, but that doesn’t mean the male and female characters outside of that plot have to be distant. I’ve read many stories where the couple is close and their friends act more like acquaintances. There’s no ‘best friend’ along with the romance. If there is, the best friend seems to be scheming to break them up or is in there to overact to a misunderstanding.
This is one of the reason I’m happy my characters came out the way they did. Luke has a romantic subplot, but Nyx isn’t involved beyond the best friend role. I just can’t see them together. People may love both characters, but I’d damage them if I pushed for something that isn’t there.
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The sad thing is the jaded view of friendship, which comes out in remarks. I love the fact that Sam is such a faithful friend to Frodo. I never saw anything beyond that. I love the fact that Luke and Nyx are friends. I talked to a guy once who felt that males and females could not be friends, because one at least would want more from the relationship. I have several guy friends. There’s no romance at all in our relationship. They’re like brothers to me. When my car needs checking or my cable’s acting weird, I can call one of them. Their wives are my close friends. But I knew the guys first.
I’m writing about two brothers in my book who have a close relationship. I might get similar comments, even though one is the possible love interest of my heroine.
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I’ve had a few friends from both genders that believed there is no friendship between guys and girls. To me, this mentality is where jealousy and misunderstandings come from. You lose good friends by believing this.
Fans always love hooking up characters in fan fiction. Even if they’re related or the same gender. Kind of creepy at times.
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One of the things I love about Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files books is that Harry has a close friendship with a female cop, Karin Murphy, and while there is some sexual tension there, they are friends and colleagues first, and neither of them is willing to risk their working relationship. That strikes me as very adult and quite realistic.
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Definitely more realistic and adult. It’s great when those types of relationships are used instead of the ‘you know they are going to do it’ things that are all over the place today.
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Reblogged this on wdbwp and commented:
Do best friends automatically equal lovers in the context of storytelling, regardless of the genders? Great topic brought up by Mr. Yallowitz!
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Absolutely LOVED Fred and George from Harry Potter. I’m sure some are thinking incest on that relationship too. But how curious. I wonder if they lack those kind of relationships themselves and have to assume some kind of sexuality within it because they scratch their heads wondering, “What else is there?” And perhaps it frightens those individuals thinking you could have a close personal friendship like that sans the sex. I’m not by any means saying sex is bad, just that there can and should be more to any relationship than the sex. Even within a romantic relationship I think it should be about more than the sex. Perhaps that’s why there’s rampant divorce, because once the lust wears off the partners can’t figure out what else to do with each other. *shrug*
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Good point on divorce. I think you make a lot of good points that this comes mostly from people who lack such relationships in their own life. Even those that have them, but don’t understand or notice them might fall into this category. Almost like a suspension of disbelief is needed for such things.
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Maybe these critics could use a few friends. 🙂
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Maybe. Or a cold shower. :p
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I can’t stand this obsession with Sam & Dean incest. I love Supernatural, and one of the best things about that show is the relationship between the brothers. But it’s exactly that, a relationship between two brothers who really don’t have anyone else. If you’re travelling on the road with someone, constantly facing death together, of course you’re going to be close.
When I’m writing something, if I have a male and female character as friends, I kind of always worry that people are going to see them as something more. And it’s constantly at the back of my mind. I have to watch out that I don’t make it seem like more when I’m writing them.
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I do like that they made fun of the idea in one episode. I’ve noticed that every fandom has a group writing fan fic of this type. It’s a strange mentality where they hook up every character regardless of gender or if there’s a blood relation. I wonder if this is done more for attention and shock value than an honest interest in such a thing happening.
Interesting thought on male/female friendships though. In the real world, people jump to those conclusions, so maybe it isn’t something worth worrying about. People will see what they see and there are friendships that are so close they make nosy people wonder.
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Yeah that’s true. People always assumed there was something going on with me and my mate Chris. Like…there has to be something for us to hang out together. But there’s never been anything there. But yeah, I think you’re right with the shock value thing. Although talking of pairings, there was a brilliant moment in Once Upon A Time where a potential relationship between Mulan and Sleeping Beauty is hinted at. And personally, I think they handled it quite well. Nothing overt, nothing stated explicitly, and just a lovely bittersweet moment.
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I haven’t seen that series, but I heard about the Mulan thing. I think some people are disappointed that it wasn’t made blatant.
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Personally, I really like it. They handle the characters well, the characters like Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty etc. aren’t just passively waiting around for the princes. And, yeah, I felt like they could have done more with the Mulan thing, mainly because previously, she had admitted to Sleeping Beauty that she loved Philip (making it so they both loved him). But yeah, it’s a good series.
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I’m still trying to cut down my television watching, so I can get work done. Maybe I’ll wait until a friend gets it on DVD and borrow to watch at my leisure.
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I admit that I like to make the occasional “Frodo and Sam are secret lovers tralala” joke, but mostly that’s just because I find them sort of boring and am trying to liven up their scenes, lol. It’s true that “shipping” is a very real and very widespread thing … I can’t speak for other people, but in my case it’s just a matter of picking my favourite characters from a particular show or book and then imagining them together for the fun of it. If Toph actually ended up with Aang, I would have been furious. It’s just amusing to think about 🙂 Luckily, that’s why authors exist — they’re immune to the rabid shipping wars that fans undergo, and are able to direct their characters into forming relationships that actually make sense within the context of the story!
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It is really about favorites when it comes to the fan-chosen pairings. I think that’s why some of my friends were pissed off about Harry and Ginny hooking up. You can only please some of the fans with this stuff.
I actually liked the Frodo/Sam/Gollum scenes more than other scenes. Mostly for Gollum, but I also found Aragorn boring as hell after the first movie. Gimli made that bearable and they had great fight scenes, but I loved the drama with Frodo and Sam.
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Well, as a girl, I was quite fond of the Aragorn/Legolas scenes due to their extreme handsomeness. So there’s that 😀
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