Harley Quinn from DC Comics
Harley Quinn is a favorite character of mine even though I’m not up on my comics, cartoons, and video games. I think one of the reasons I like her is that she started in the Batman Animated Series and ‘broke into’ the comics. Personally, I find it impressive when a character from one media type is added to a big franchise, especially one as big as the Batman Rogues Gallery.
Harley and her Hyenas
Now one of the things about Harley that I’m going to touch on here is that she isn’t pure evil with no care for other living things. Yes, it says on Wikipedia that she doesn’t care about killing people with the exceptions of Joker and Poison Ivy. At least her villain side since she’s a hero now. Sadly, this part is missing someone from the list. Her ‘babies’! The hyenas who are probably no longer in the comics if they were ever there to begin with. I remember them fondly, so I will include them.
Villains don’t have to hate everyone, use everyone, and plot the demise of all living things. While a bad guy is typically defined as having little regard for the lives of others, I find you get a better connection when the villain has some favorites. Aliens from other planets can get away with despising all humans, but if your antagonist is from Earth then it is rather strange that there’s nobody they would wish to keep alive. Even Carnage, a superhuman serial killer from Spider-Man, had a ‘girlfriend’ named Shriek and they went on killing sprees together. Wouldn’t really call it empathy, but more of a bond over the fact that they love killing. My point here is that you bring some depth to a villain by giving them someone to care about. It doesn’t have to be their reason for living and they might not have pure intentions for that person (I’m looking at you, Dracula). Just the act and ability to show interest in another creature shows they’re not a one-dimensional being of evil incarnate .
There is a pitfall with this because not every reader goes along with the program. It’s strange how this works, but I’ve seen it in action. Many people want their villains to be pure evil and have no redeeming qualities. They take joy in the fall of such monsters and don’t want to feel sympathy for them. So you give them a pure monster with no care for any living thing. Your smile will be short-lived because people will call such a thing boring, lazy writing, etc.
I’m know I’m pulling a ‘you just can’t win’ card here, but it’s something to be aware of. My suggestion is to do what’s right for the story and the character. If your main villain decides to adopt a slave girl and you’re not sure why then let it play out. Obviously, some part of your brain is up to something and did some subplot work while you were trying not to burn your morning toast. (FYI- You might want to check the toaster.) Let the readers fall where they may. After all, the more human villains seem to have the longer lifespan in terms of popularity.
Legends of Windemere 
I definitely agree with the “do what’s right for the story” idea. One of my big problems with “sympathetic” villains is that the objection of their affection often just doesn’t make sense, or is too hard to believe. Oftentimes I think writers will throw in a lover or an adopted child or something purely for the purpose of making their villain sympathetic. But if a villain is going to care about something or someone, it’s got to make sense, and it has to seem natural. I think that’s one of the reasons why people are loving Loki from the Thor movies so much right now. He cares about a few people, sure, but he’s more focused on his evil quest for world domination — so he cares just enough about Thor to keep him sympathetic in our eyes, since there’s that tiny gleam of hope for redemption, but at the same time he regularly tries to blast Thor into smithereens or chuck him out the bottom of a helicarrier. I’ve pretty much lost the thread of what I’m trying to say here, so in conclusion, great post, I agree 100% 🙂
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Sounds like you were saying Thor 2 is worth seeing. 😉
I agree with the strained sympathy. Villains who suddenly adopt a child for no reason or are compassionate after several heinous acts. If the villain is shown to have some level of compassion then it makes sense. In my series, most of my villains have some level of humanity and care about other things. For example, one is a queen who is a villain because the alternative is for the main bad guy to feed her people to demons. So I can have her be nice. Another is just despicable and I can never have him do anything nice without it being ridiculous. Stay true to the character is the best policy here.
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You stole my Loki comment–just kidding–but I was going to say the same thing. And you made total sense to me. Loki lets some vulnerability and humanity come through in spite of all his evil plans and plots. It doesn’t hurt that he’s hilarious.
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SO funny. He has so many amazing lines in the new Thor movie! Although there’s talk about a Loki standalone film, which worries me … he and Thor are so interconnected, it would feel weird to have a movie with Loki but not Thor. Unless they manage to do it really well, of course, in which case I’m behind it 100% 🙂
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I agree! I don’t understand how a Loki by himself movie would work–wouldn’t he then have to be the “hero” against a far more evil villain? But, I do love Tom Hiddleston, so I’m sure I’d see it anyway!
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Maybe they can give him a ‘hero’ movie that ties into the inevitable Avengers 3: Everybody vs. Thanos movie.
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I think that could be interesting if they explored the “antihero” as hero idea–what would it take to make Loki truly “heroic”? I feel like he’s similar to Tony Stark in some ways–attitude wise, I suppose–but Tony ends up being pretty selfless and heroic whether he would like to admit it or not.
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If they’re aiming for the Infinity Gauntlet storyline from a few decades ago then Thanos wiping out half of the universe’s living things in one wish could be enough to have Loki side with the heroes. No fun ruling over a world where everyone is dead. Also, it felt like Thanos kind of used him as a pawn in the first Avengers, so ego could push him. Another way could be he starts on Thanos’s side and is really a traitor trying to get the Infinity Gems. He is the God of Mischief after all. This is all brainstorming off the top of my head.
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You know, I only saw The Avengers once–I should remedy that. But hey, it all sounds plausible to me!
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Same here. It’s on my list of DVD’s that I should probably buy. Not right that I own Spider-Man 3 and I don’t own Avengers.
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Well, it would have to avoid the traditional good vs. evil struggle, I think. Maybe something along the lines of something is threatening Loki’s control over Asgard, or an enemy from his past appears, or he has to … you know, some situation where it’s not him fighting against a big evil guy, it’s him trying to overcome a challenge that happens to be as evil as he is. He definitely couldn’t do anything like defend the innocent — he’d have to stay a sympathetic villain, because even if they slap the anti-hero label on him, that would be taking away from his evil awesomeness.
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Just curious if you get any of my comments in this conversation too. Never figured out if a 3-person conversation here sends replies to everyone or just the person I’m talking to.
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I think it just sends to the person you reply to.
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Got it. I had a bunch of comics involving Thanos, the Infinity Gauntlet, and Loki sent to Wanderer. Wasn’t sure if you saw those.
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It’ll be interesting to see what they decide to do if they end up making the film. But you’re right–I think even the anti-hero angle would cheapen who he is
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A Loki movie would hurt, if not destroy, the character. As you said, I think one of the reasons he works so well is his interactions with Thor. Sounds like they simply want to capitalize on the character’s current popularity, which is dangerous when done by Marvel.
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You know…writers tend to make black and white worlds…the bad guys all bad the good guys a most a little mischievous. I’m thinking that in real life it’s not so cut and dry, so it just might be possible to come up with a baddy who has nice spots…basitcally though the important thing is how you can fit it into a story, and if you can handle the contradictions in a coherent fashion.
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It’s actually becoming more common for villains to have soft spots these days. Even the most evil modern villains have those one or two soft spots. I’m thinking of Voldemort and Nagini (that right?). Sure it was self-serving, but it was still a soft spot to some extent and he had moments of mercy. At least in the movies.
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In the movies yes…I know what you mean though. This whole job of good guys and bad guy can get very complicated I think. At the risk of contradicting myself, there are times when it was nice to not have to somehow excuse the poor bad guy because he had a terrible childhood or whatever, and besides he loves his dog (or snake). Logic though does tell us that there’s no such thing as a purely evil person…now a purely evil ork is another matter,evil being so completely in character that you don’t have to give him a bit of saving grace!
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I’m not sure if I fully agree with that. I believe that if you can have a purely good person then there is the possibility of a purely evil one. It doesn’t mean that person will ever appear because society prevents such things with laws and punishments. Still, I think there is a chance of such a being coming into existence and people would have very little idea what to do with them. People love them in fiction, but in reality it would be a terrifying creature to meet.
Funny thing about orcs is that I didn’t make them evil in Windemere. They’re along the spectrum like elves and humans.
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I have two of your books and alas…haven’t settled to read them…yes (I hang my head in shame). Maybe in a book a purely good person can exist, but I don’t believe such a creature exists in the real world…but even a sufficiently bad person is already hard for society to deal with…a real pure evil creature…terrible.
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I have met one or two people who I would consider pure good. No bad acts, no judging, etc. It was strange dealing with them because you get the feeling that they have no true opinion.
I just realized that the part of my books that explains the orcs aren’t evil monsters was deleted because it was part of a pointless scene. Though, I do have orcs walking and being nice. Mostly, female orcs who resemble Valkyries more than their monstrous male counterparts.
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Ah…I’ve met good people like that too and yeah you sometimes get the impression that they keep their opinions to themselves…if they have them. You’ve created female orcs! Fantastic, I’d never heard of female orcs…it would explain why they might be less monstrous.
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I’m sure they’ve been done before. I made it so that the males are monstrous-looking and the females are gorgeous. They still have tusks and are very strong.
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Probably Terry Pratchett came up with female orcs…he came up with female dwarfs…with beards of course.
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Yeah. He got a lot of praise and then mockery for that. Funny how people will love something in fantasy then make fun of it.
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Ach…people are like that…but I love his dwarf ladies in the Ank-Morpork city watch!
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