Hour of research and all this is all I needed
First, I hope everyone is enjoying 2015. Small stomach bug here and the boy’s asthma is acting up, so I think 2014 is getting a finally shot in.
Some people may have seen the great 4-star review of Pamela Beckford. It’s the one before this post and it got me thinking about my genre because part of her critique has been a fairly common sentiment. Thankfully, she said it a lot nicer than other people have and that’s why I started thinking about it. Early on, I claimed that my books were YA since I didn’t know what else to call them. I was never entirely comfortable with this even though they’re similar to what I read as a child. There was no YA category at this point, so fantasy had the sex, violence, and nudity. Not that anyone has a problem with #2 for some reason, which will eternally baffle me. Act of taking a life? No problem. The naked form or natural act of procreation? BE GONE, YOU CORRUPTING DEMONS OF THE PAGE!
I don’t hide the fact that some of my characters are knocking boots. I never show the act though. I don’t think I’ve even had Luke grabbed Sari’s naked breast on purpose. At least not until I wrote that sentence just now. You get some heavy making out, playful innuendo, talking about the act, and the blissful aftermath. This really doesn’t come into play until Allure of the Gypsies when Sari, the sexually open female character, makes her debut. So it’s around that time that I hear how the book has too much sex in it, especially for teens or children. Personally, I disagree since I’ve heard teens talk about sex with no shame whatsoever. That’s just me though and I have to consider my genre accordingly. I do end up warning people getting these for young teens that there’s a lot of violence, which never seems to phase them. Yeah, yeah, dead horse.
Sari by Kayla Matt
Here’s what I found about the 2009 creation ‘NEW ADULT FICTION‘:
- Protagonists range from 18-25/30. CHECK!
- Fantasy is a little iffy in here because this fairly new category seems to focus on real world stuff. First job, life after high school, dating outside of high school, etc. Still all of my heroes are trying to handle a path that takes them into adulthood. A major part of the story is how they grow as characters, which is one of the reasons I don’t shy away from the relationship stuff.
- More attention to sexuality and identity, which is what some people have had issues with in my books. Though, I’ve also read that YA does this too, which is a reason many people don’t think the New Adult category is necessary. I think a challenge here is that everyone has their own tolerance of the topic and thoughts on what a child should be exposed to. I would say my books are better for the ’14 and up’ crowd, but others would say it’s for the ’18 and up’ crowd. So it is hard to put an exact age bracket on books like this. Is a teen able to read something with innuendo? Does the topic work better if protection and the possibility of pregnancy get mentioned? This is the area of debate for ‘Legends of Windemere’ and I’m thinking it’s all about personal preference, which is how it should be.
- Doing an image search for ‘New Adult Fiction’ requires the Safe Search Off because nudity comes up. Image search for anything violent and you don’t need the Safe Search Off. Just something I noticed that confused me.
- I stopped to do another check about ‘New Adult Fantasy Fiction’. I got nothing, so it seems the two genres aren’t really hooking up. It’s either YA Fantasy with it’s ‘immature tone’ or Adult Fantasy with its gritty brutality.
So in conclusion, I am:
New Adult Fantasy Fiction with a YA Tone and Style
Glad I could clear that confusion up . . . Now back to writing a scene where Delvin is caught naked and can’t get to his clothes. There’s a sword joke in there and think his ‘attacker’ actually makes it.
Legends of Windemere 
I think this whole thing about tolerating violence more than sex comes from the conservative Christian culture of America. Then again there’s plenty of violence in Tom&Jerry cartoons and no one objects to it. Violence is readily tolerated so long it’s not extremely graphic gore stuff. I am writing dark fantasy myself, though I haven’t written any graphic violence or sex scenes so far. I think it will be PG 13, but it might turn out to be rated R, since it’s the characters who write the story and not so much me. We shall see what they do next 🙂
I put the first book of The Legends of Windemere in my 2015 TBR challenge list and quite curious about the story, I think I will love it, now that I read a bit of a teaser here.
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I was emancipated at fifteen, so yeah…sex.
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And kids learn about sex earlier these days. On the other hand, I think it makes the topic less taboo in terms of discussing with adults.
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Totally agree with you there. Maybe if an adult had been willing to be more open to talk with me about birth control, I wouldn’t have been emancipated at fifteen.
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Great point. When I was a sub teacher in Florida, I heard kids talk about sex even in 7th grade. The false information was astounding. Pulling out is better than condoms, pissing off parents, you can’t get an STD from oral sex, pregnancy is a path to tv stardom, etc. There were many with clear heads on the topic and many of those mentioned that an adult explained stuff to them.
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Agree with you again, Charles… most of the fairy stories we read our tinies have violence, but sex is deemed inappropriate… we’re a weird lot.
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Almost backwards in a way. Like I said, I never got a complaint when the Lich up and ate somebody with more detail than any of the sex parts.
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It does rile me somewhat I admit that an act that brought every single one of us into being, even the most puritanical, is still shoved under the metaphorical carpet. But let’s behead, drive stakes, vampirise and play with guns and swords by all means… *sighs*
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Kind of supports the idea that humans are naturally violent. Odd how someone people ignore how they came to be or even how they acted in their youth.
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Makes you wonder just what such repression of self is actually breeding doesn’t it?
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This is why I stay in Windemere. 🙂
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Great post and topic. I write the story I want and let the characters take it where they will. Then I play hell trying to shoehorn it into a recognizable category. I let Arson get to rated R in a couple of scenes. All of them have violence in some form or another. What’s a writer to do? I say write what you like.
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Exactly. You gotta do what feels right. It’ll be interesting what happens when I move on to my second series. That’ll be violence aplenty.
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By the time I hit high school I learned a lot about sex by reading VC Andrews…at some point teens are going to be interested in reading about sex. Better to have confident, trustworthy, and loyal authors writing about sex, I think, so do it, I say. As a parent, I’m aware they’re going to read about sex, which leaves me hoping they’ll find it through reading quality fantasy and fiction. Instead of graphic photography and porn at such an impressionable age. Most teens are reading adult genres, so the upgrade to Adult makes sense.
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I think I started talking Sex Ed in Middle School, so it felt like it was something heavy that had to be talked about as soon as I hit my teens. This kind of helped get the idea out of my head that it would be something that is simply ‘fun to do’, which some teens believe now.
Good point that most teens are reading adult genres any way. Any teen who loves to read will go for the older stuff. Besides, I read ‘The Great Gatsby’ and ‘Catcher in the Rye’ in high school. Those aren’t ‘clean’ at all.
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Exactly, so why not approach it in a responsible way in your novels. Sex is regarded in a totally new way now, and most parents would rather it was written with a set of values behind it.
Yes, not to mention the Danielle Steele novels that flooded the library shelves. I remember having to read out loud words like whore and blushing about it. Times have changed. Shakespeare can still make me blush.
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That’s where I’m getting lost. I’m not sure what the responsible thing is here since the actual act isn’t appearing on the page. There have been talks about protection and pregnancy, but those have been with clothes on. I guess what I’m wondering is what does one do when the book in question doesn’t show the actually sex or even foreplay that goes beyond kissing?
I never had to read it, but I remember some parents getting annoyed at classes that read ‘The Scarlet Letter’.
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I think you’re taking the responsible route by being honest about the subject and the idea that sex exists between human beings. Honest storytelling touches upon life in all situations. It must be that way, I think. I don’t know much though, so take it for what it’s worth.
Yea, that’s another one. I think parents were upset about that book bexause it did touch on reality. Maybe even their own…ya know? Usually how that works, I think.
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Got it. That makes sense. Not a responsibility to show the act and its aftermath, which many take to be only the negatives. Instead a responsibility to treat it like a part of life and not shy away from both sides of the coin.
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Yes, I believe so. Thanks for sorting through my rambles. There’s always a point, but I take the long way around. Tis why I stick to poetry. 🙂 Enjoy your day!
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Violence is just a given these days! The sex stuff? Well it makes people feel good to have a block put on that for some reason. Who knows? BTW those stomach bugs are always around during the holidays!
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Sad that violence is a given. Maybe the blocking of sex is simply the fear of teens doing it. Many people kind of figure that they’ll know not to commit violence, but sex isn’t always a certain avoidance. Not sure if that makes any sense even in my own head.
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If they would read the paper or watch the news they would see plenty of the teen violence. Right? It is sad!
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Yeah. The 5-year-old sat down when someone was watching the news yesterday and I had to convince him to leave. Kid was there for stories on murder, rape, missing plane, and another murder. Come to think of it, he had a really bad nightmare this morning and won’t talk about what it was about.
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I guess the sword would be more useful than the clothes. Hopefully, he at least has that. 🙂
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Uh . . . it’s around.
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It’s kind of hard to place things. My trilogy is YA because of the themes (self-discovery, first love, learning to be true to one’s self instead of family expectations, plus a lighter tone and more romance than is typical in harder/more traditional Fantasy), but my main characters are 19 and 23. If I called it NA, people would complain it wasn’t gritty enough, or that there’s not enough sex. They seem to think all NA should be about “sexual awakenings.” <– This phrase makes me gag.
And as you said, NA tends to be defined as taking place "in college or the years after high school the years when we're starting careers and getting first apartments yadda yadda," and there's none of that in Fantasy. Well, not in mine.
YA can have sex and violence for sure. I've actually not seen a complaint about it in mine (though a few reviewers agreed with my recommendation that it be for readers 16+). Someone moaned about a few curses, but that's about it. Most of my readers seem to be adults, anyway (what I'd actually call young adults: 18-25. Anything for younger audiences should be called teen, IMO. They should be separate age categories. A 14 year old is very different from an 18 year old in terms of maturity).
My beef is when people call YA and NA "genres" when they're audiences. NA Romance is a genre, "NA" isn't. YA Fantasy is a genre, as is YA contemporary. It just feels limiting when all YA is expected to be the same, or all NA.
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I agree about the genre thing. I think I only used it for simplicity.
I’m in a similar boat with my books being more light-hearted than the gritty adult stuff. I’m hitting some darker themes now, but there’s always a ‘shininess’ to things. Honestly, I get more criticism for not plunging the series into darkness than anything else. People want a higher body count that I’m not delivering.
I tried really hard not to give an exact category for that, but it doesn’t seem possible. YA,NA, and Adult all seem to be more about personal growth than physical age. There are some adults that can’t handle the sex/violence you find in a YA book while you have young teens who shrug off the grittiness of an adult novel. Guess this is why they work better as marketing targets and basic guidelines.
Good point about the post-high school thing and that might be where I ran into a problem. Luke’s first adventure is in a military academy and that seems to have set a mentality in a few readers that this is a YA Fantasy. Also that Luke is the only main character instead of it being a team tale. It is strange that my heroes are leaving the school age behind and entering the ‘real world’, but one of the most common complaints is that there are adult situations.
There’s another side to it that just popped in my head, but I’m not sure I should say it out loud.
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Say iiiiiit!
(and nothing you said bugged me. I just see a lot about “the NA genre” referring to erotica, which gets my goat. 😉 )
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One of the things that seems to bug some people is when the female characters take the sexual initiative in my books. I don’t mean jumping bones, but making the choice to have sex without being romantically wooed. It isn’t a big group like this. Yet many times, the source of complaints are aimed solely at the female characters. So I wonder if there’s something about a sexually confident, open, or even curious woman that people don’t like. Trying very hard to explain this as delicately as I can.
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No, it’s a good thing. My characters do that, too. There’s something wrong when people have a problem with it, I think (I mean, have a problem with sex, but drop the double standard. It’s 2015, folks.)
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I agree. Maybe people just want women to be non-sexual characters. I really don’t know.
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As usual, I am by far not an expert, just hoping my personal, honest experience with reading fantasy can come hnady to you, Charles.
I remember when I was 14, as a heavy fantasy reader ( heavy = I only read fantasy, no books of other genre.) I would feel highly uncomfortable reading sassy scenes, even inuendos and aftermaths. I think this is because of the reality border between fantasy and reality. I know that I cannot stand upright and start channeling balls electricity, can’t tame a dragon or manipulate fire. Sex, on the other hand is real, especially in the age of 14, when your own sexuality starts awakening, as well as your desire to explore, understand and try becomes more free. I remember I made a break of several years with “Wheel of time”, because the (SPOILER INCOMING!) love of Egwene and Rand, the playfull, amorouse kind, was getting replaced by more serious actions, which in my eyes were discomforting and incomprehensive for my brain and character growth in reality. I understand and read in a much more profound and open way, now when I am a grown up, those same books. at 14, it was burdening. I wanted battles and magic, not a fuck tent in the desert. I benefited mentally far more from the character mental growth in those fantasy books, learned about strenght, compassion, fidelity, urge and duty to fight. I felt, at that time, like the massive sex clumps in the books were just taking that away from me.
I can safely say that if I was 14, I would not be able to continue reading your books. I would, just like with WoD, msot likely pause and revisit your series after a few years.
I cannot give an answer about the violence. Again, I can focus solely on fantasy and say that the setting , enviroment, abilities all make it justifiable, because it keeps carrying the unreal note. You can stick to the book and keep the reality vs fantasy border clear, and learn from it, whilst in the example of TV it is all mixed up. They will show you Conan the movie, followed by news of actual war, making it feel as though there is no difference. What I want to say is that people are desenitized to violence. partially sex to. But think about the fact that all of us has sex, but not all of us experiences violence in the sense of 1 type of violence, the full experience of it. I have never been to war and never had to take anothers life, but I could’ve died during the bombing of Belgrade in 1999. Using again this experience of mine as a comparisson, I felt the scenery and causes in the fantasy books were more justifiable and they wre not making me feel uneasy. Because a cruel wizard was not channeling snowstorms to my house in the village by the lake from his great black tower in the north. But I did not read Zelazny then. If I did, I would find the book disturbing, the fantasy motives of it would be blurry in my eyes.
I know times have changed and 14 y olds are different now, and we have the oportunity now more than ever to better grasp the likes and disslikes of readers and analyze them.
If you ask me, the whole genre thing is stupid, I would eradicate it complitely, because I think that it would make the reader benefit more, without the taglines and coaching, only “Here is a book, read it, and learn something from it!”
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I only read fantasy too when I was a teenager, but I never got to ‘Wheel of Time’. A few books I read had sex in it, but I shrugged it off. It was part of life and the characters were old enough to make that choice as far as I was concerned. That’s just me though.
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One of the joys of being British is that my fellow countrymen – and the Australasians, for some reason – will be very much unfazed by the kind of sex and swearing that would freak out a lot of folk in say the US, South Africa (possibly) or India. As a result, I’ve found that if I make sure my book is labelled as being in British English, anyone who would worry tends to just assume I’m a barking mad Brit and leave it at that. It’s the first time being a member of the world’s most hated nation has done me any favours!
That said, I think the age of the characters is key here. I write what I call YA but when I was a teenager I liked reading books about older folks and imagining I was them. So my hero and heroine are 22 and 21, which means that when they do have a snog and we close the bedroom door on them knowing they’re definitely at it, then, from a parent’s point of view, they’re old enough and ugly enough to make that decision for themselves.
Cheers
MTM
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For some reason I remember part of a Robin Williams joke as he’s talking about history: “Then came the Pilgrims. Our ancestors. A people so uptight, the British kicked them out.”
Character age seems to be a factor, but I never really paid attention to it when I was younger. Some were teens while others were adults. Maybe I’m odd, but I didn’t care what their age was. In my books, they range from 18-mid 20’s.
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That’s the best joke ever. On the age is key thing, I meant more that the reaction to characters having sex tends to depend on the age of the characters. If mine were 14 and 15 I suspect a lot of people would be shocked by my even suggesting they had nookie. But because they’re 21 and 22 most folks will consider them old enough and ugly enough to think for themselves in that respect.
When it comes to actually reading stuff, no, I don’t care how old they are, although I prefer them younger as I get all maternal and upset when horrible things happen to wee teenagers. Phnark.
Cheers
MTM
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Interesting. I’ll admit that I keep the sexually active characters in the 18+ range. I might have younger ones talk about it with questions or curiosity, but I don’t go further than that. Makes it a little unrealistic considering how 14-15 year olds operate today.
You think genre has something to do with it too? I know a few people that have no problem with teens having sex and getting slaughtered in a horror movie. Yet they get upset when it happens in another genre like fantasy or romance.
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